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The only problem with atheism are the atheists who insist on trying to prove every religious person they meet is wrong, just like the evangelicals who insist on trying to convert every "lost soul" they meet. You can't provide hard evidence that God exists but you also cannot provide the same that God doesn't.
Just respect what others choose to believe or not believe, its simple.
Well, let's be clear what we're talking about: I respect people's RIGHT to believe what they want. But I don't have to respect WHAT they believe. Get what I am saying?
For example, if I meet a skinhead somewhere who believes that the white race is superior to everyone else, should I respect that just because he believes it? No, of course not, it's a bullshit and dangerous belief.
By the same token, if people are delusional that an invisible man in the sky is watching over them, I don't feel obligated to respect them. In fact I think that we should be more openly mocking of this type of thing, because giving religious nuts undue respect for their cuckoo beliefs has allowed their beliefs to govern our laws and guidelines in society, and to hinder scientific progress and destroy our educational system. If someone comes on TV saying that Barack Obama is a secret Muslim, we laugh at them (rightly so) -- but if someone comes on TV and says that an angel helped him win the Boston Marathon, or that God doesn't want us to do stem cell research, we are forced to actually take them seriously. I think that's a huge problem.
I think most religious people are good people though. I would be content to let them believe their nutty religions in private, but the problem is that most of them want to tell everyone else how to live, because they believe that the world is going to end and all of us are who don't believe their BS are going to be eternally tortured.
Well, let's be clear what we're talking about: I respect people's RIGHT to believe what they want. But I don't have to respect WHAT they believe. Get what I am saying?
For example, if I meet a skinhead somewhere who believes that the white race is superior to everyone else, should I respect that just because he believes it? No, of course not, it's a bullshit and dangerous belief.
By the same token, if people are delusional that an invisible man in the sky is watching over them, I don't feel obligated to respect them. In fact I think that we should be more openly mocking of this type of thing, because giving religious nuts undue respect for their cuckoo beliefs has allowed their beliefs to govern our laws and guidelines in society, and to hinder scientific progress and destroy our educational system. If someone comes on TV saying that Barack Obama is a secret Muslim, we laugh at them (rightly so) -- but if someone comes on TV and says that an angel helped him win the Boston Marathon, or that God doesn't want us to do stem cell research, we are forced to actually take them seriously. I think that's a huge problem.
I think most religious people are good people though. I would be content to let them believe their nutty religions in private, but the problem is that most of them want to tell everyone else how to live, because they believe that the world is going to end and all of us are who don't believe their BS are going to be eternally tortured.
I understand. I also dislike people who try to force their beliefs onto others, religious and atheists alike.
What I'm saying is religion/spirituality is somethings entirely personal and cannot be forced by someone else's persecution.
I agree. But then what was the point of the stuff about the woman meeting her family as a result of the accident. You seemed to be implying God does stuff like that, although it doesn't make a lot of sense because why can't he just do that anyway and prevent the accident?
Theres a saying I've heard a few times by different pastors, in a nut shell, its never drift to far away from your family, if you do, the reunions tend to be very painful. Its like out of the blue I started dreaming about my grandmother for a couple of days, then naturally I procrastinated about going to see her. Then I got a call from my brother telling me she had passed suddenly from pneumonia after being hospitalized the same day.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Three Dee
There are only two possible answers here:
(A) God can do anything, but he likes fucking with us and seeing us suffer.
(B) There is no God interfering with our day to day lives; sometimes bad things happen, sometimes good things happen, and sometimes some good comes out of a bad situation naturally, without any rhyme or reason, beyond the motives and actions of human beings and random chance.
I choose B. How about you?
I choose (b) as well because I don't believe God is a table top manipulator, a grand skeemer. I believe the rules of this game called life are already layed out before us. You either do the right thing or you don't and you always plan for the worst nomader what choice you make.For whatever reason, for me personally, my life runs its smoothest when I'm humble, respectful and honest with people.
Back tracking a minute, how everything is layed out is def not clear to me but as it were in dreams ect, Gods complexity and sheer infinit scale is unfathomable.. I stand behind Spinoza in that I feel "We, created in Gods image" is based on the Atom, not the topical ie flesh
Quote:
Originally Posted by Three Dee
I agree 100%. So why pay attention to any of the fucking thing in the first place? If we can blame all the bad stuff in the Bible on poor translations, how do you know if any of the good stuff is reliable either? And there is much more bad stuff, than good stuff.
To me, based on the little I have read, the contradictions, especially slavery stick out like a sore thumb. Its like parts of the Bible teach love for life and god, then bam, you have the protocoles for how to be a "godly" slavemaster. I see that as total manipulation of the script. Again, I cant really argue much because I havent read the Bible in its entirety but Slavery is a spit in the face of the teachings of Jesus Christ.
I choose (b) as well because I don't believe God is a table top manipulator, a grand skeemer. I believe the rules of this game called life are already layed out before us. You either do the right thing or you don't and you always plan for the worst nomader what choice you make.For whatever reason, for me personally, my life runs its smoothest when I'm humble, respectful and honest with people.
So basically, you're saying God doesn't interfere in life, your own actions create their own consequences, and whatever you make of your life is what it is. I agree.
So then what does God do? Seems like nothing.
Quote:
To me, based on the little I have read, the contradictions, especially slavery stick out like a sore thumb. Its like parts of the Bible teach love for life and god, then bam, you have the protocoles for how to be a "godly" slavemaster. I see that as total manipulation of the script. Again, I cant really argue much because I havent read the Bible in its entirety but Slavery is a spit in the face of the teachings of Jesus Christ.
I agree, in principle... and obviously you're a good and moral person who knows that slavery is wrong. It sounds like we are saying the same thing in different language.
The only place I have to disagree with you is, that knowledge and good morality doesn't come from the Bible. It comes from the fact that you're lucky enough to be born into a time where most of the world rejects slavery; you are a product of a (mostly) forward thinking society. If you had the misfortune to be born when the Bible was written then you would probably accept slavery as a fact of life. You say that the Bible is really good and awesome, but the version we have is mistranslated. I can't agree, I think it's wishful thinking to assume that there was all this good stuff that we just don't have access to anymore because a bunch of monks ruined it. How do you know? Maybe it was an exact copy of the Harry Potter novels, but I'm gonna go ahead and assume that it was just as repulsive as the version that survives today because that's the simplest explanation that makes the most sense.
That's why I don't understand how you are so sure that slavemasters were 'perverting' the Bible. I think they were taking it at face value because slavery is condoned and accepted all over the Bible. I don't know of one single passage where Jesus condemns slavery, and I have searched it. I did find a lot of passages in Paul where he passively accepts slavery, mentions how slaves should conduct themselves, etc. Someone who is anti-slavery would not nonchalantly mention slaves and how they should act, like the New Testament does.
So basically, you're saying God doesn't interfere in life, your own actions create their own consequences, and whatever you make of your life is what it is. I agree.
So then what does God do? Seems like nothing.
I'm not saying my life, and the lives of others is without "his" grace. I have had the most amazing things happen to me as a result of my faith. What I'm saying is, without pushing yourself, and forging your own path, you are not growing as a person, or in spirit. You are not reaching your potential, and or the potential of others by sitting around and praying for God to get you out of debt, find love, whatever the case might be. I derive all of my strength from God but with that I have learned that requires everything I have in order to succeed.
The key for me has always been, even in the most cynical and sceptical times of my life, to keep a open mind. The impossibiliy of what God truely is is something that cant be rationalized, at least not by me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Three Dee
The only place I have to disagree with you is, that knowledge and good morality doesn't come from the Bible. It comes from the fact that you're lucky enough to be born into a time where most of the world rejects slavery; you are a product of a (mostly) forward thinking society. If you had the misfortune to be born when the Bible was written then you would probably accept slavery as a fact of life.
A fact of life, yes, which I think made slavery a harder thing to let go of, especially in that time period. The Church decided what was included and excluded in the Bible. They decided what best fit Gods plan. So what if they got text that denounced slavery, would we know? Who's to say their bias for having slaves in their lives was so great that they chualked anything presented to them that painted slavery to be immoral as heretical or maddness? It was, after all, their job to sift through and seperate "authentic" writings from the fakes. Because, as you said, slavery was a fact of life, doing without slaves meant a absolute change in lifestyle, something I'd imagine most of the upper class at the time could not handle. It came down to politics,imo.
Last edited by DaveClinch; 11-18-2009 at 12:36 PM..
I'm not saying my life, and the lives of others is without "his" grace. I have had the most amazing things happen to me as a result of my faith. What I'm saying is, without pushing yourself, and forging your own path, you are not growing as a person, or in spirit. You are not reaching your potential, and or the potential of others by sitting around and praying for God to get you out of debt, find love, whatever the case might be. I derive all of my strength from God but with that I have learned that requires everything I have in order to succeed.
The key for me has always been, even in the most cynical and sceptical times of my life, to keep a open mind. The impossibiliy of what God truely is is something that cant be rationalized, at least not by me.
A fact of life, yes, which I think made slavery a harder thing to let go of, especially in that time period. The Church decided what was included and excluded in the Bible. They decided what best fit Gods plan. So what if they got text that denounced slavery, would we know? Who's to say their bias for having slaves in their lives was so great that they chualked anything presented to them that painted slavery to be immoral as heretical or maddness? It was, after all, their job to sift through and seperate "authentic" writings from the fakes. Because, as you said, slavery was a fact of life, doing without slaves meant a absolute change in lifestyle, something I'd imagine most of the upper class at the time could not handle. It came down to politics,imo.
How can you continually rationalize your faith? This a bad joke. You've held several positions that are contradictory to each other.
You're "idea" of god is far from what the christian establishment claims. I don't see how you can defend something you know too little about.
Please take a comparative religion class, a course called introduction to logic, and a history course... I think they could help you.... Then again you'd argue with the teacher problem...
Revolutionaries don't fear execution
Cause the death of my visible Constitution
Is just the beginning of spiritual evolution
God will reincarnate me as revolution
11-16-2009, 04:42 PM
