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But if you take the Old Testament out of the arguement, then you greatly reduce the anti-god-christian-satire from this discussion. Do you really want that? Also, you will be accused of picking and choosing from "Gods word " to better fit you're own pathological "I need a super Daddy" needs and desires. It clearly states in the "Religion People vs Smart People" rule book that you are not allowed to be open minded/free thinking if you are a christian. Thats just not how real christians are bro..
Sorry man I hadn't realized I was doing it wrong. PRAYSE JEEZUS LOL.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Three Dee
No, that is what Christians say, nowadays, because they are embarrassed of the Old Testament. But that is not what Jesus says in the Bible. In the Bible, Jesus actually says that we should obey the crazy Old Testament Law:
Matthew 5:18-19:
"For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.... Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
Malachi 4:4:
"Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments."
Not to mention all the places in the OLD Testament, where God says that his law will last forever and never be broken or contradicted. How is that possible? Was he lying? Did he not know the Jesus thing was gonna happen later on?
If you went back in time 300 years, and suggested that Jesus did not really want us to believe in the Old Testament Law, you would probably be burned at the stake. They say it now, though, because the Old Testament makes Christians look bad in 21st Century America, so they need a bullshit defense for it. "Oh, you know all that stuff in the Old Testament? Just ignore that. Except when you want to bash fags, then it's OK."
Jesus didn't teach Christians to ignore old testament law, the moral implications still hold true (i.e. don't steal stuff, don't go killing, don't rape your neighbor or their dog). The bottom line of what he said when he came along was that man cannot judge man. He taught that it is wrong to stone someone because you think they are a sodomite, it's wrong to stone the drunk for drunkeness, etc.
The 21st Century America Christians are the ones who have distorted these teachings to their own values and believe they have the right to judge and punish others for what they see as wrong.
If you read what he taught that is
Sorry man I hadn't realized I was doing it wrong. PRAYSE JEEZUS LOL.
Jesus didn't teach Christians to ignore old testament law, the moral implications still hold true (i.e. don't steal stuff, don't go killing, don't rape your neighbor or their dog). The bottom line of what he said when he came along was that man cannot judge man. He taught that it is wrong to stone someone because you think they are a sodomite, it's wrong to stone the drunk for drunkeness, etc.
No, Jesus didn't say any of that in the Bible. Jesus said to follow the Mosaic Law to the letter. I just posted the quotes directly out of the Bible where he supposedly said this.
What is going on is that YOU are picking and choosing which parts of the OT to continue following (don't steal stuff, don't go killing) and which parts to stop following (gays are an abomination, stone your children if they talk back to you) based on CURRENT societal standards, not based on anything in the Bible. Jesus did not make these delineations, he said to follow the OT Law down to the last detail. You are doing this because the things the Bible, including the New Testament, tells you to do, are repulsive by modern standards and so you are consciously ignoring them.
And by the way -- good for you. You SHOULD ignore the Bible's moral guidelines, because they are insane, and by doing so, you are proving that (like most "Christians") you are a good person and you have better morals than the Bible does. Now the next step is to let go of the superstition and realize that Jesus didn't exist and all of this stuff is entirely fabricated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by theLSDraptor
The 21st Century America Christians are the ones who have distorted these teachings to their own values and believe they have the right to judge and punish others for what they see as wrong.
That is a good thing. 21st Century Americans are not perfect, we still have some kinks to hammer our of society, but we are better people, morally, than the primitive people who were around when Jesus supposedly lived. We have the benefit of science and technology, and hindsight and 2,000 years of recorded human history. We are in a better position to understand morality than they were, and that is why our society is much better than theirs was, that is why we have abolished slavery (supported by the Bible and Jesus), made women equal under the law, etc., etc.
How are the teachings of Moses and Jesus just feet apart? Lets hear some examples..
I get the psychological effects of religion, sure. Like the guy that walked into that Church and gunned down the preacher and several churchgoers because he said "Religion is destroying our world". One of my favorites is the North Korean General who ordered several people caught reading Bibles in a secret "Bible reading" killed by laying them down in a two file line and running them over with a steam roller. Yeah, I get it, religion causes people to do some really terrible stuff.
When i said MO i meant Mohammed since thats who you referred to as being light years a part. Thats a stupid argument to bring up, you can think of very few times where christians have been killed for their belief. Lets turn that around here. The Christian Institution is responsible for more deaths than any other government or belief in the history of the world. Millions to Billions have people have been "rightfully" slaughtered in the worlds most untold genocide.
and just so you know you did totally miss all the psychological aspects of religion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveClinch
But if you take the Old Testament out of the arguement, then you greatly reduce the anti-god-christian-satire from this discussion. Do you really want that? Also, you will be accused of picking and choosing from "Gods word " to better fit you're own pathological "I need a super Daddy" needs and desires. It clearly states in the "Religion People vs Smart People" rule book that you are not allowed to be open minded/free thinking if you are a christian. Thats just not how real christians are bro..
The argument for insanity/immorality against the christains can still be made even if you take out their jewish beliefs.
This is an awful point because Christians on the sole basis of their faith are close minded. Notice the use of the word FAITH? you believe something to be true in the face of evidence that says otherwise and edit out the parts of the religion you find crazy to meet your need.
Revolutionaries don't fear execution
Cause the death of my visible Constitution
Is just the beginning of spiritual evolution
God will reincarnate me as revolution
No, Jesus didn't say any of that in the Bible. Jesus said to follow the Mosaic Law to the letter. I just posted the quotes directly out of the Bible where he supposedly said this.
Matthew: the ten commandments are still revered under the teachings of Jesus. None of them outline any sort of punishment that one man should exact on another for breaking them.
Malachi: Old Testament. Jesus doesn't show up until the new testament.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Three Dee
What is going on is that YOU are picking and choosing which parts of the OT to continue following (don't steal stuff, don't go killing) and which parts to stop following (gays are an abomination, stone your children if they talk back to you) based on CURRENT societal standards, not based on anything in the Bible. Jesus did not make these delineations, he said to follow the OT Law down to the last detail. You are doing this because the things the Bible, including the New Testament, tells you to do, are repulsive by modern standards and so you are consciously ignoring them.
What is going on is I am reciting the things I learned through my 8 years of CCD. This is the way I understand them from the way the priests, nuns, and others who taught interpreted and relayed the information to us children. I would trust the interpretation of someone who has devoted their life to the study of one book than yours; Which all you are saying is just that, your interpretation. You are just as bad as the hardline christfags who take everything the Bible says to a T.
The biggest issue here is over the past 5000+ years the bible has been written and rewritten by countless power hungry men. It has been translated from one language to the next and words have been lost, meanings distorted/lost in translation, etc.. To take the words out of the English version and go running around claiming that is the way God/ Jesus intended is ridiculous.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Three Dee
And by the way -- good for you. You SHOULD ignore the Bible's moral guidelines, because they are insane, and by doing so, you are proving that (like most "Christians") you are a good person and you have better morals than the Bible does. Now the next step is to let go of the superstition and realize that Jesus didn't exist and all of this stuff is entirely fabricated.
Don't worry it's been a few years since I've realized it's a story. The similarities between the story of Jesus and figures such as Horus, Krishna, Dionysus, etc. are too obvious to believe they actually occurred. There most likely was a person who was more spiritually enlightened than the commoners at the time who traveled much of the world throughout their life collecting these tales from gurus they met, and then returned to Mesopotamia armed with a new tale of this man-god Jesus. They may have even claimed to be Jesus themselves and the crucifixion may have actually happened, who knows. No one on this planet was alive at the time so no one can be so sure whether it did or not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Three Dee
That is a good thing. 21st Century Americans are not perfect, we still have some kinks to hammer our of society, but we are better people, morally, than the primitive people who were around when Jesus supposedly lived. We have the benefit of science and technology, and hindsight and 2,000 years of recorded human history. We are in a better position to understand morality than they were, and that is why our society is much better than theirs was, that is why we have abolished slavery (supported by the Bible and Jesus), made women equal under the law, etc., etc.
I would say there are some major issues with our society we need to hammer out, and in some aspects we have regressed to a state worse than that of our ancestors.
I'm liking this dual debate we've got going on here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by keepitwolfson
... Notice the use of the word FAITH? you believe something to be true in the face of evidence that says otherwise and edit out the parts of the religion you find crazy to meet your need.
Faith is believing something to be true without evidence proving it to be, and also without evidence disproving it.
Believing something to be true with evidence proving otherwise is denial/insanity (see: 9/11 Commission Report).
You are just as bad as the hardline christfags who take everything the Bible says to a T.
The biggest issue here is over the past 5000+ years the bible has been written and rewritten by countless power hungry men. It has been translated from one language to the next and words have been lost, meanings distorted/lost in translation, etc.. To take the words out of the English version and go running around claiming that is the way God/ Jesus intended is ridiculous.
Don't worry it's been a few years since I've realized it's a story. The similarities between the story of Jesus and figures such as Horus, Krishna, Dionysus, etc. are too obvious to believe they actually occurred. There most likely was a person who was more spiritually enlightened than the commoners at the time who traveled much of the world throughout their life collecting these tales from gurus they met, and then returned to Mesopotamia armed with a new tale of this man-god Jesus. They may have even claimed to be Jesus themselves and the crucifixion may have actually happened, who knows. No one on this planet was alive at the time so no one can be so sure whether it did or not.
I would say there are some major issues with our society we need to hammer out, and in some aspects we have regressed to a state worse than that of our ancestors.
I agree with 3d on this one. You can't pick and choose but i agree with just about everything else you've stated except for when you said a jesus figure might have existed. This i cannot believe in the slightest seeing how there is not one historian of the time who mentions anything of the sort. Jesus doesnt come into equation till atleast a hundred years after he supposedly lived. The story of the son (sun) of god is astrological allegory that goes back thousands of year before Constantine and his priests came up with a method of control that encompassed about 90% of the ancient religions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by theLSDraptor
I'm liking this dual debate we've got going on here.
Faith is believing something to be true without evidence proving it to be, and also without evidence disproving it.
Believing something to be true with evidence proving otherwise is denial/insanity (see: 9/11 Commission Report).
There are many facts that point to all religion being a hoax. Faith justifies said denial/insanity. Faith also helps close the mind. The term its self implies that there is evidence that supports something contrary to a belief otherwise you wouldnt need faith or hope.
Revolutionaries don't fear execution
Cause the death of my visible Constitution
Is just the beginning of spiritual evolution
God will reincarnate me as revolution
I agree with 3d on this one. You can't pick and choose but i agree with just about everything else you've stated except for when you said a jesus figure might have existed. This i cannot believe in the slightest seeing how there is not one historian of the time who mentions anything of the sort. Jesus doesnt come into equation till atleast a hundred years after he supposedly lived. The story of the son (sun) of god is astrological allegory that goes back thousands of year before Constantine and his priests came up with a method of control that encompassed about 90% of the ancient religions.
I was just speculating, whether or not J-man existed is irrelevant. The whole idea of him influenced billions of people as well as major events in history. To people in our time he is as real as Alexander the Great, Caesar, or any other famous dead guy.
Also, someone had to make it up. Someone (or group of someones) had to be smart enough to recognize the patterns of earlier spiritual figures and then pull an L. Ron Hubbard. That person(s) is the true Jesus figure in my mind.
Why can't you pick and choose? We do it everyday with every other aspect of our lives. That is just who we are. Why is it wrong then to shape your own beliefs if you feel they make you a more balanced/enlightened person? If you do it in a hypocritical manner then people will see that and realize you're a fucking retard, that's your own loss.
It surprises me how such a lack of people know about the sun allegory. I try to bring it up to people when religion is talked about and most of the time it's like "I'VE NEVER HEARD THAT. YOU CAN'T BE SERIOUS." But it just makes sooo much sense as far as the evolution of things that man has worshiped, doesn't it?
I was just speculating, whether or not J-man existed is irrelevant. The whole idea of him influenced billions of people as well as major events in history. To people in our time he is as real as Alexander the Great, Caesar, or any other famous dead guy.
Also, someone had to make it up. Someone (or group of someones) had to be smart enough to recognize the patterns of earlier spiritual figures and then pull an L. Ron Hubbard. That person(s) is the true Jesus figure in my mind.
Why can't you pick and choose? We do it everyday with every other aspect of our lives. That is just who we are. Why is it wrong then to shape your own beliefs if you feel they make you a more balanced/enlightened person? If you do it in a hypocritical manner then people will see that and realize you're a fucking retard, that's your own loss.
It surprises me how such a lack of people know about the sun allegory. I try to bring it up to people when religion is talked about and most of the time it's like "I'VE NEVER HEARD THAT. YOU CAN'T BE SERIOUS." But it just makes sooo much sense as far as the evolution of things that man has worshiped, doesn't it?
So the high roman priests of the mystery school and Constantine would be the "jesus" then? They are the ones who encompassed all the ancient stories in to one mega-messiah that everyone could believe in.
Picking and choosing is great when it comes to philosophy and other ways of enriching our lives but we are talking religion here which is very rigid, strict, and dogmatic. If religion has always be subject to editing then we are so far from its origins that it would be false. It'd be like the kids game telephone. So you couldn't even claim to be true which i know you (lsd) already understand.
Revolutionaries don't fear execution
Cause the death of my visible Constitution
Is just the beginning of spiritual evolution
God will reincarnate me as revolution
What is going on is I am reciting the things I learned through my 8 years of CCD. This is the way I understand them from the way the priests, nuns, and others who taught interpreted and relayed the information to us children. I would trust the interpretation of someone who has devoted their life to the study of one book than yours;
That's your prerogative. I would prefer the analysis of someone who doesn't have a vested interest in promoting Christianity, isn't emotionally involved and invested in spinning away anything that puts Christianity in a bad light, and takes the Bible at face value for what it actually says.
I find this happening a lot, whenever you point out to Christians what the Bible actually says, they usually expend a lot of energy saying that it doesn't really say what it says. Why not just believe what it says? This was how people behaved back then. Why would God write a book with his most important directives in it for the human race, and make it so contradictory and metaphorical? That doesn't make much sense for a superhuman entity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by theLSDraptor
Which all you are saying is just that, your interpretation. You are just as bad as the hardline christfags who take everything the Bible says to a T.
Yeah, shame on me for actually reading the Bible and taking what it says in the text at face value, rather than reinterpreting what it says to make it sound nice. *eye roll*
And what's with "Christfags"? Why not take everything the Bible says to a T? That would seem to be the way to go, if it's the word of God, no? Either it is the absolute moral code, or it's not. If it is, it would seem like a good idea to follow it to the letter since the proposed alternative is burning in hell. And if it's not, then fuck it, why read it at all? Why all the verbal calisthenics trying to justify something that you're admitting is only partly true and riddled with holes?
Quote:
Originally Posted by theLSDraptor
The biggest issue here is over the past 5000+ years the bible has been written and rewritten by countless power hungry men. It has been translated from one language to the next and words have been lost, meanings distorted/lost in translation, etc.. To take the words out of the English version and go running around claiming that is the way God/ Jesus intended is ridiculous.
So what is your solution? We should all learn Hebrew and Aramaic and become Biblical scholars, in order to squeeze some truth out of it? In the end what is the point? If you can't understand the true essence of the Bible, and all we have to go on is the translated version we have, then what good is it? By what you're saying, even if there was some good in it, it would be lost to the dead ancient languages it was written in anyway.
Anyway, to me, this is just a huge copout because the entire mishmash in the Bible is cobbled together from word of mouth and hearsay and unreliable and in most cases unknown sources to begin with, it's a hodgepodge of made up stories, non-historical "historical" fact, and ripped off stories from other civilizations' mythologies. So it seems like kind of irrelevant that the translations have screwed up some of the message over the years. What we have is what we have, and that is a self-contradictory mess.
Quote:
Originally Posted by theLSDraptor
Don't worry it's been a few years since I've realized it's a story. The similarities between the story of Jesus and figures such as Horus, Krishna, Dionysus, etc. are too obvious to believe they actually occurred. There most likely was a person who was more spiritually enlightened than the commoners at the time who traveled much of the world throughout their life collecting these tales from gurus they met, and then returned to Mesopotamia armed with a new tale of this man-god Jesus. They may have even claimed to be Jesus themselves and the crucifixion may have actually happened, who knows. No one on this planet was alive at the time so no one can be so sure whether it did or not.
Yes we can. No one on this planet was alive when Lincoln was shot either, but we know it happened because there was ACCURATE historically verifiable accounts of it happening that have been preserved over time. Same thing with the lives of Socrates, Julius Caesar, etc. Not one drop of that contemporary eyewitness confirmation exists for Jesus.[/quote]
11-03-2009, 10:10 AM
